Evo VIII vs. Evo IX gear comparison

[Mikey52]

Im really...really bored at work today so I decided to put this info into pretty pictures. It's kinda cool to see how fast you're going in each gear. This is the VIII 5-speed vs. the IX 5-speed. If someone posts the 6-speed ratios I can make another picture with that on it.

PREPARE TO SCROLL! :D

VIII

http://bagelbitez.com/TheEvo/misc/evo8gearratios.jpg



IX

http://bagelbitez.com/TheEvo/misc/evo9gearratios.jpg



6-speed

http://bagelbitez.com/TheEvo/misc/evo6spdratios.jpg

[All We'll Drive]

Thats pretty cool

[Mikey52]

I added the IX 6-speed ratios. I think the VIII and IX 6-speed is the same.

[Pure Evo]

So when I'm driving in 5th gear at 100rpms, I'm going 2.2mph?

Seriously, that's cool info. I had kind of figured out the general stuff, so I know when I'm going down a 35mph road, I sit in 4th just over 2k and I know I'm not speeding... it's cool to see it all written out.

[Pure Evo]

BTW, our engine note is "E" at 2500rpms...

[Warrtalon]

This is important for Marty to read (Mgrand34), because his manual says that his 4th gear is 108mph at 7k rpm, but I kept arguing that only is the case on the VIII 5spd. This shows that the IX 5spd is only at 102mph at 7k in 4th while the 6spd is 101mph at 7k in 4th, which is much closer to one another than the VIII 5spd. This also confirms the concerns I had regarding racing the IX. It is going to have the same 4th gear limitations at the drag strip, and then on the road course, it appears you have to use your overdrive (5th gear) for any speed over 105mph, which doesn't seem like it would be a good thing when the 6spd can take you from 105-135 then 6th speed takes over after that...

It might depends on the speed of the track. At Summit, I was barely able to get to 135 once or twice and probably only hit 133-134 at best, but at VIR, apparently it has a 140mph straight, which would mean an extra shift for the 6spd possibly.

[Pure Evo]

This info is also very good for rev-matching...

[Mikey52]

This info is also very good for rev-matching...

Yeah, I didnt think of that but it gives you a good idea of what RPM you will fall to when you shift (up or down). What's the stock revlimit on the IX?

[Warrtalon]

7600 on all USDM Evo's so far.

[cotmfk]

Man, if I raise my rev limit to 10K, I can go 220MPH!!!! :D


Yes, I know I have enough power for that STOCK, and the room for it on notoriously fast 66. <sarcasm>

[mgrand34]

Clayton, while it is possible for the 6 speed to hit 135 at 7400 rpm in 5th gear, 1. you wouldn't want to abuse your car like that on a roadcourse and 2. your torque and has fallin off so far at that point youll be lucky if you are making 200 ft pounds at the wheels. The lower gearing on the MR 5th gear woudlnt be able to overcome the loss of power.. So a shift to 5th is needed by 7k at the latest to stay in the money range (shifting at 128mph). You will find that if you shift at 7k vs 7400 from 5th to 6th, your top speed at the end of the straight will be higher with the earlier shift. Trust me on this Ive done much experimenting. The key is torque, In contrast, A high revving high hp car with very little torque like my honda will benefit from carrying the gear longer. For comparo My Galant with a 50 trim and sheetmetal intake was able to make over 350 ft pounds at the wheels from 4500-7200 RPMs unbelieveable flat, thats what a bigger turbo and a sheetmetal intake can do for you. (btw I was at low boost that day, that why the lower overall numbers. )

Marty

[Warrtalon]

I understand, but even if you say 100-127mph, the 5spd would have to have the advantage. I've born these facts out at the drag strip with my many trips. Shifting at 7100-7200 nets me the best ETs and fastest MPHs even though I hit peak WHP at 6800 or so. Shift too early, and I'm not in the meat of the powerband in the next gear. Shift too late, and the power has died off for too long. At Summit, I was usually shifting at 7k, since I didn't think it was necessary to treat every shift like a drag race, but it still seems like 5th gear on the 6spd going from 5500-7000rpm (100-127mph) would be much faster than on the 5spd (4800-6100). We make peak HP over 6500rpm, so the 6spd would be right in the highest section of HP the whole time and the 5spd would have a bit higher torque, but much less HP. You wouldn't want to drop as low as 4800rpm in a drag race, so it just doesn't seem like the 5spd would keep up in this instance.

Once the 6spd has to shift (128mph?), then a lot of the advantage would be lost.

[mgrand34]

5th gear on the 6spd going from 5500-7000rpm (100-127mph) would be much faster than on the 5spd (4800-6100). We make peak HP over 6500rpm, so the 6spd would be right in the highest section of HP the whole time and the 5spd would have a bit higher torque, but much less HP. You wouldn't want to drop as low as 4800rpm in a drag race, so it just doesn't seem like the 5spd would keep up in this instance.

I guess we are not going to agree on this but I will leave it with this; "Any given car, in any given gear, will accelerate at a rate that *exactly* matches its torque curve (allowing for increased air and rolling resistance as speeds climb). Another way of saying this is that a car will accelerate hardest at its torque peak in any given gear, and will not accelerate as hard below that peak, or above it. Torque is the only thing that a driver feels." Given this, the 5 speed being more in its torque peak longer would out accelerate the 5th gear in the 6 speed. IF the torque did not die off up top (like my Galant I referenced above) the car with the higher PEAK hp at that given time would be faster.
Marty
We need to get to the track and test this stuff out some more :)

[Warrtalon]

I just have a hard time reconciling that with drag racing. If it's best to be at or near peak torque all the time, why do we try to stay near peak HP when drag racing? If I let my RPMs get anywhere near peak torque (3800rpm) on the drag strip, my run is already ruined. I go no lower than 5600rpm in any gear at the drag strip. If I shift below 7k, it puts me below 5500 in the next gear, and the times are much worse with much lower MPH. How does that fit into the torque theory? I'm not trying to disagree. I just don't understand.

It's like saying it would be better to go from 4800-6100rpm in every gear at the drag strip rather than 5500-7200 like I do. Is it different when we're just talking about 5th gear?

[mgrand34]

I just have a hard time reconciling that with drag racing. If it's best to be at or near peak torque all the time, why do we try to stay near peak HP when drag racing? If I let my RPMs get anywhere near peak torque (3800rpm) on the drag strip, my run is already ruined. I go no lower than 5600rpm in any gear at the drag strip. If I shift below 7k, it puts me below 5500 in the next gear, and the times are much worse with much lower MPH. How does that fit into the torque theory? I'm not trying to disagree. I just don't understand.

It's like saying it would be better to go from 4800-6100rpm in every gear at the drag strip rather than 5500-7200 like I do. Is it different when we're just talking about 5th gear?

The simple answer is you want both peak hp and peak torque, to do this however youd have to have your peak torque continue into the higher rpms. So you are basically coming to a compromise, you are going higher than your peak power to get back into your best range (combination of torque and hp) after your shift (shifting at 7k or 7200 when you know your peak hp is 6800) Usuing just 5th gear as the model here just make it easier to understand, takes away shiftin etc out of the equation. Below Is it a blurp that explains it pretty well. ]

In contrast to a torque curve (and the matching pushback into your seat), horsepower rises rapidly with rpm, and especially so when torque values are also climbing. Horsepower will continue to climb, however, until well past the torque peak, and will continue to rise as engine speed climbs, until the torque curve really begins to plummet, faster than engine rpm is rising. This is a key point. If you mess about with the formula, you can see that, as long as torque values aren't dropping at a rate that is as great or greater than the rise in rpm, horsepower will climb.

However, horsepower has nothing to do with what a driver *feels*.

You don't believe all this?

Take your non turbo car (turbo lag muddles the results) to its torque peak in first gear, and punch it. Notice the belt in the back? Now take it to the power peak, and punch it. Notice that the belt in the back is a bit weaker?

[Warrtalon]

Yeah, I know all about the "feel" being from torque, but that's also a function of drag and inertia. You feel it more, because you aren't going as fast. Once you overcome the initial drag, you feel less g-forces despite gaining in HP dramatically. Maybe I just can't comprehend. It just seems like the basic torque argument doesn't take into account all the laws of physics (inertia/momentum).

[VR4orceCJ]

I agree with Marty...not because of all the technical mumbo jumbo, but because of real world on track experience in various cars on various tracks. First things first... Clayton be careful how much of that drag racing theory you bring to the roadcourse...Marty and I learned the hard way...you'll tear your car up and have slower laps to show for it. Smooth is fast and gorilla shiftin down the straight is a sure way to upset your cars balance, especially on tracks like VIR that have a 130+mph dogleg on the front straight. Run your car at the limit, shifting at ultra high RPMs, throwing it into the corners like you stole it may be fun, but in the long run you'll burn up your equipment.

So what I'm saying is enough bench racing...when are we gonna put the rubber down ?

[Mikey52]

Ive been shifting at 7k into 5th at Summit (and I shift sloooww :o ). I feel like I am stressing the car enough already, there's no reason to take it all the way to redline. I also tend to chill out on the straight, get my head together. :)

I hate all this track talk, it's getting me all antsy to get back out there. :D

[mgrand34]

Im in, I cant wait to get back out there. We will have to get some of the Evos from this list out with the Audi club in the spring. My plan at this point is to make the VIR SCCA Regional race in March and apply for my National license. After that run the NE Regional and National events. I just have to figure out which car Ill be racing, If I can get my already fully race prepped Honda Prelude from the ITE class to the EP class, I will most likely run that. Just not sure if I can detune it enough. If not, Ill run in T2 in the Evo. Oh and squeeze some drag racing time in with the Galant, new set up should be much faster than before.
Marty
Honda prelude #11 ITE

[MadMsheen]

It might depends on the speed of the track. At Summit, I was barely able to get to 135 once or twice and probably only hit 133-134 at best, but at VIR, apparently it has a 140mph straight, which would mean an extra shift for the 6spd possibly.

Clay, I hit 140mph down the front straight at Summit Main.:p I gave my ABS a real workout at the end of that stretch, and almost gave my instructor a heart attack. Needless to say, I only did it once.:D

All of this talk has me wanting to get back out to the track too. There are alot of things I would like to work on. Primarily being smooth and keeping my eyes up, which I'm trying to practice in Grand Tourismo on my Logitech steering wheel.

[Warrtalon]

Clay, I hit 140mph down the front straight at Summit Main.:p I gave my ABS a real workout at the end of that stretch, and almost gave my instructor a heart attack. Needless to say, I only did it once.:D

All of this talk has me wanting to get back out to the track too. There are alot of things I would like to work on. Primarily being smooth and keeping my eyes up, which I'm trying to practice in Grand Tourismo on my Logitech steering wheel.

Damn, you sure? 140 was really tough for us to reach, especially if you couldn't come out of turn 10 at 90, which was probably hard to do on street tires. I once made it up close to 135, but that was only on a free straightaway with no one in the way and with holding 5th as far as I could. Were you in 6th (6200rpm) or 5th (7700rpm)?

[VR4orceCJ]

Damn, you sure? 140 was really tough for us to reach, especially if you couldn't come out of turn 10 at 90, which was probably hard to do on street tires. I once made it up close to 135, but that was only on a free straightaway with no one in the way and with holding 5th as far as I could. Were you in 6th (6200rpm) or 5th (7700rpm)?

I hit 140+ on the front straight at SP regularly in my Galant...I know this becuase I have a Traqmate GPS system. On average I hit 142 before braking...sometime more, sometimes less. This year it should be more like 145+ :) I had one time that I hit 142 lost my brakes and hit the gravel trap at 121...slowed to a stop 2 feet from the tire wall. Learned that I need to start each race with full thickness brake pads!

Happy Holidays!

[MadMsheen]

Damn, you sure? 140 was really tough for us to reach, especially if you couldn't come out of turn 10 at 90, which was probably hard to do on street tires. I once made it up close to 135, but that was only on a free straightaway with no one in the way and with holding 5th as far as I could. Were you in 6th (6200rpm) or 5th (7700rpm)?

It's funny that you ask that, Clay. I thought I told you the story. I was hitting 135 regularly down the straight. I premeditated the 140. I set up the entry into turn 10 to make sure I came out really fast tracking all the way onto the extra pavement on the exit. Needless to say, I was going pretty fast coming out of the sweeper into the straight. I can't remember what gear I was in before braking into turn 1. Yes, braking into turn 1. I needed the extra room to slow down enough to heel-toe into the apex.

I was just on autopilot attempting to squeeze the 140 out of the MadMsheen. I'm pretty sure I wasn't in 5th, I wasn't bouncing off the rev limiter. I was just paying attention to the speedo, and backed off as soon as I hit 140.

I know it was 140, because my instructor specifically mentioned that he was only doing 135 down the straight, when I told him of my plan.